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Charlie Hebdo: France mustn't allow to be changed by murders

Street view: Interestingly, the Google Maps photograph from August 2014 shows a police car at the place of the tragedy. Unfortunately, the protection wasn't permanent and perfect. But the assigned bodyguard for Charb, the editor-in-chief, was there yesterday as well and he was killed, too.
Two hours ago, gunmen invaded the French satirical anti-religious left-wing magazine Charlie Hebdo ("Charlie Weekly") and shot at least 12 people (which includes two cops and the cartoonists named Cabu, Charb, Tignous, and Wolinski). See Wikipedia on the terror attack. The publication has had a long record of controversies involving Islam (and other religions).



In November 2011, the magazine tried to please the Muslims. They renamed themselves as "Charia Hebdo" and named Prophet Mohammed as their new editor-in-chief. Even this gesture of peace wasn't enough. One day later, the headquarters were fire-bombed and the servers hacked.

Now, we've seen the mass murder – Kalashnikovs and rocket launchers were used half a mile from Notre-Dame today – and it is no longer funny.




The jokes by this magazine have always been provocative. Some people like them, some people dislike them. But according to the pillars of the Western civilization, no one has the right to violently do something about their existence. They have the right to make fun of Allah, Prophet Mohammed, and any other killer or clown – whether they are a real living religious leader, a historical figure, or a virtual ghost.

People have the right to believe in various religions and their holy cows – but they have the same rights to believe that these holy cows are stinky animals and the religion is a pile of stupidity and backwardness.




I suspect that the gunmen and their soulmates have a problem with this fact. It must be made spectacularly clear that it is a problem that they have, not a problem that the French society has.

Twelve people is a lot. It may drastically change or kill the magazine. If a magazine like that were killed, the discourse in France would seriously change. Within a few years, the Islamists could make France ready to become an Islamic state. They could achieve this outcome by the one-murder-at-a-time (or a-dozen-of-murders-at-a-time) method.

As you can see, I am assuming that the perpetrators are Muslims. I don't want to paint the Arab on the wall but because the attackers shouted 'we have avenged the prophet' and "Allahu akbar", something inside me is telling me that the culprits were unlikely to be Buddhists. However, some witnesses seem to say that the killers spoke French with no accent.



Street view: here is the place where they shot the injured cop

I think that France shouldn't allow it. It's illegal to murder journalists in this way, of course. But if France weren't able to reduce the probability or frequency of similar acts, it would effectively become irrelevant that murders are illegal. The conditions dictated by the terrorists would become as important as the French law if not more so. If a certain kind of murders is becoming more frequent, it should mean that the government should strengthen the policies to fight against this kind of crime.

It would seem reasonable to increase the monitoring of dangerous activities within the Muslim minority. It should become mandatory for everyone to inform police about all planned violent crimes. Maybe, Muslims should be forced to sign this arrangement, that they will cooperate with the police regardless what Allahs, Mullahs, and other Mohammeds say – and if they refuse, they should be deported. Or something else should be done that will make similar murders less likely in the future.



Street view: first ten seconds, from 0:15 to the end

I also think that others should actively help Charlie Hebdo to resuscitate their staff and the magazine should be given a better police protection.

My broader point is that France should better realize that these are not just isolated murders analogous to other random murders but a part of a campaign that is gradually and systematically reshaping France in a direction that sane French people should find highly undesirable, to put it mildly. And that's why not just these individual crimes should be dealt with; the campaign should be opposed in some way as a whole, too.

By the way, it's amazing what Wikipedia is saying about the event right now:
January 2015 attack[edit]
Main article: 2015 Shooting at Charlie Hebdo

On 7 January 2015, at least two gunmen opened fire at the Paris office of Charlie Hebdo, killing at least 12 (two police officers), and seriously wounding at least 10.[24][25]. It's possible that the dead employees are burning in hell now. Fυck wikipedia and "Jimmy" Wales
It's not really possible that the victims of the terrorist attack are burning in hell – because nothing like "hell" exists. But the bloody hell-believing supporter of the mass murder may be praised for learning to write – it is impressive.

Condolences to the families, friends, and the French nation.

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reader Shannon said...

What a carnage....


reader davideisenstadt said...

yeah...effing jews.
all their fault.


reader Philip Weisler said...

I'll eat my hat if the French establishment, possibly Francois Hollande himself included, won't underscore in their sermons that all of this ''has nothing to do with the real Islam'', which of course is actually the ''religion of peace''. And of course they won't forget to add ''how tremendous is the contribution of Muslims to France'' etc while of course failing to name just one positive ''contribution'' of Islam to Europe.


reader laboussoleestmonpays said...

Dear Lubos, as a French citizen and as a teacher in a underprivileged "suburb of Paris" I definitely do not see "a campaign that is gradually and systematically reshaping France". As far as I can see from my place this is a fantasy peddled by some French journalists and writers who behave as thinkers. There are terrorist threats and now attacks with organised small groups, but I do not see a huge plot. I see basic mass media instantaneous coverage, people mesmerization and knowing-just-enough-to-be-dangerous extrapolations. I mourn with you the loss of 12 people among them half of our most famous caricaturists : Cabu, Charb, Tignous and Wolinski.


reader Ann said...

allahu fukbar


reader Ann said...

Love your avatar!


reader Shannon said...

If Charlie Hebdo had been aping the jews it would have ceased to exist long time ago ;-)


reader davideisenstadt said...

yet you continue to exist...go figure.


reader Shannon said...

You too, monkey ;-)


reader Titan000 said...

France had gun control yet those terrorists still had guns.


reader Uncle Al said...

Islam is doing now what the Church of Rome did then: Crusades, Inquisition, 30 Years War; "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius," Papal legate and Cistercian abbot Arnaud Amalric, July 1209. Istanbul was Constantinople.

Roman Catholic priest to rabbi, "Isn't that just the prettiest little boy! Let's screw him."
Rabbi to Roman Catholic priest, "Out of what?

Joyfully embrace the exercise of faith in all its forms. I delight in Philippine Easter. Click on the picture to cycle the glories of Christ.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/worldnews/7544416/Roman-Catholic-penitents-flagellate-themselves-and-re-enact-the-crucifixion-at-Easter-in-the-Philippines.html


reader Swine flu said...

There certainly is "a campaign that is gradually and systematically reshaping France". It's called immigration.


reader Rodrigo Duarte said...

Terrorism and the culture of fear, it does shape societies ... the fear of being politically incorrect or offend someone who can kill me, if allowed somehow works. No conspiracies, no grand plans, simply isolated acts of terrorism may achieve even more if you feel helpless at your own home.


reader Luboš Motl said...

Hi, the transformation of France is occurring at several levels. As Swine Flu says, one of them is immigration (plus different birth rates) that is changing the composition of the population and therefore the potential for different political changes.


The other level is that these changes are actually - perhaps inevitably - taking place. Elimination of 1/2 of France's most famous cartoonists - as you described it - is arguably a rather significant transformation of the French cartooning industry.


But you know, the trend-like character of this crime - in the context of many other crimes, I could enumerate, including some of those against the very same newspaper in the past - stems from the fact that no one cares who were exactly the gunmen. Everyone knows that they were "some Muslims" and the number of Muslims who would be willing and ready to do something like that is huge and may be assumed to be proportional to the population of the French Muslim minority.


This proportional and omnipresence of the potential for terror is how this crime and similar crimes differs e.g. from Breivik mass murder. Breivik is a very special criminal, a black swan, and one may attribute his act to his being special. It doesn't lead to any predictability of future events.


On the other hand, the Islamic crimes are predictable because they are committed by rather generic Muslims.


The third level is what we may see after such acts. I am afraid it will be obvious that the amount of satire that does involve Islam and its symbols will drop as everyone is scared.


1.6 billion people are Muslims - believers in the religion of Allah - and virtually all of the criminals in similar situations scream Allahu Akbar. So it seems bizarre to me that you don't see any "huge plot". Islam is the huge plot and you must be blind if you don't see it.


reader Ravenscar said...

A sad day for free speech, in France and in all of Europe. It should be said, that, we cannot cave in to the zealots who who drag us back to the dark ages of a C6th existence and to blind faith which a creed which can not be renounced - except by pain of death.


What should also be noted, already like the dogs waiting for their chow in a truly Pavlovian salivation. Bowing down, are the authorities and the governments of the Brussels Empire, who are at this very minute are backtracking and apologizing, making appeasing noises, "religion of peace", actually it is the creed of acquisition and dhimmitude.

It shames us, it shames the victims of todays' atrocity - the people of Europe have been sold down the river and be apprised. For, as the lights of Europe grow dim, ominously the crepuscular shadow of the eastern crescent is looming across Europe, and on the march.
They will come, there will be nowhere to hide, it will mean war, already Isis prepares for the day of the jihad - of Ummah.


reader Gordon said...

Surely you mean, "aping the Catholics"...the jews only kill people who are threatening to annihilate them, not make fun of them. The Catholics do it to themselves.

The citizens of Dresden have the right idea, but Angela Merkel is being all PC about it.


reader Shannon said...

Gordon, are you being PC sarcastically here ? :-)


reader Phelps said...

France has already changed. That's why this was possible. If France hadn't already submitted, then Charlie wouldn't have been singled out -- all the French magazines would be joining in.


reader Luboš Motl said...

I think that you are being PC naive here - probably talking about the worsened image?


But the image isn't the most important thing. Life is more important, for example. The people in France who are courageous to draw Mohammed *and* who are good at making cartoons have been pretty much exterminated, and that's a nontrivial "problem solved" for the Muslims.


Moreover, people are likely to be more scared, so they will behave in a way that is more compatible with the special elevated status of Islam. I think that this is almost inevitable, my only wish is for this increased fear to be as small as possible.


reader Vangel said...

As I wrote above, my friend, it was not that long ago when France was encouraging its Muslim population to join the fight in Libya as NATO troops were trying to remove Muammar Gaddafi from power and replace him with al Qaeda affiliated groups. At that time the people who opposed the meddling argued that it would not be long before blowback created problems that the cheerleaders have not seen coming.

Given that you can see how this has worked in Ukraine why don't you see that the same forces are playing out elsewhere? Just as NATO funded the right wing militias that used Nazi symbols and saw non-Ukrainians as viruses to be eliminated it armed, funded, and trained Islamic extremists so that the Western countries that make up NATO can replace dictators that they do not like with puppet dictators that they favour. The French were cheering when their pilots were acting as al Qaeda's air force and bombed Gaddafi's positions and when rebels tortured and stabbed Gaddafi to death. Now that some of those rebels are using the French, American, Canadian, and British passports to travel to Europe and North America and are endangering our security the interventionists are in denial and trying to blame others for the seeds that they have sown.


reader Vangel said...

Wasn't France at war when its planes bombed Libya and when it supported the overthrow of Assad in Syria? Didn't France allow its Islamic residents to go and fight Gaddafi? Didn't it offer aid to terrorists? France chose to stir up trouble because its government was on the ropes economically and it needed a distraction. Instead of protesting the intervention the French citizens cheered. What we are seeing now is the expected blowback that was created by the intervention.


This is why many of us are passionate advocates for peace and oppose any kinds of intervention where governments use force either at home or abroad for non-defense purposes.


reader Swine flu said...

Your posts are a perfect example of rationalization and ultimately justification of something that is simply utterly unacceptable.

See, France did something there, so you have a reaction here. The moral of your story is to never, ever offend a certain group's sensibilities or they'll kill a few Frenchmen in response. This type of logic is that of a culture that has become too stupid to survive, or maybe you simply like acting like you are part of the fifth column yourself.


reader Swine flu said...

Maybe, maybe not, but either way nobody would have died.


reader MikeNov said...

The pope is capable if acting as a wolf in sheep's clothing. His comments on homosexuality appear to be exactly that, providing him an opening to get people to hear what he has to say.

For climate change, some big climate establishment types mad a presentation on the subject, and this is the result.


reader MikeNov said...

You appear to be living in a dream world. What percentage of France is Muslim? What about for those below age 10?
France is maybe a half century away from being majority Muslim. As it is, there are declared no-go areas where Muslims effectively rule, and even the police tend to stay away.


reader Shannon said...

I agree with you, Vangel. However not all French people cheered. The Front National has always been against those interventions/wars in Libya and Syria to which they were accused of being in favor of the dictatures in those countries.


reader Luboš Motl said...

Whether France will be mostly Muslims in 50 years will also depend on the behavior of France, what it is doing and what policies it adopts.


Even if France becomes a mostly Muslim country in a few decades, it may, should, and will protect the basic Western freedoms for the remaining time.


Incidentally, you have posted quite a number of obnoxious comments. You are 1 similar comment away from being placed on the black list.


reader BMWA1 said...

Sly use of the hachek! Keeping it clean!


reader Cogniscentum said...

It's always "What's in it for Putin" with these guys.


reader Cogniscentum said...

Keep thinking on it, you will come up with an explanation of how it is all a Zionist plot against Putin, enabled by the American puppets of the Jewish state.


reader Cogniscentum said...

Never far from the racism, are you?


reader Swine flu said...

Every country makes foreign policy mistakes, but no country expects its citizens to kill their fellow citizens in response. And cartoonists are not even a military target, so the linkage here makes even less sense than no sense at all.


reader strictly speaking... said...

This shows the advantage of having a few Reaper drones in your air force. If a terrorist attack happens where you have one in the sky, they won't be getting away in a car. Drone strikes are the appropriate way to deal with terrorists.


reader BMWA1 said...

Chèirf Kouachi, Said Kouachi and Hamyd Mourad are the names of the murderers.


reader MikeNov said...

It's obnoxious to point out you are living in a dream world?
While you are right as to what France should do, the evidence that they will is remote. The EU policies are to shun those who speak against immigration. This includes Le Pen's party(one of those nonrespectable parties that takes up an issue the mainstream parties ignore). Sarkozy did make some noises about this when he was in charge. I have read in the past that we should not worry, because if Europe is truly threatened then they will really clean house, but I doubt it.

They did announce a few years ago that they were going to try and clear up the no-go zones. http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3305/france-no-go-zones


This magazine was firebombed three years ago, and nothing appears to have been done. It also happened in the US that a cartoonist who started 'Everybody draw Mohammed' was forced into hiding after a fatwa was issued against her, and the FBI said they could do nothing to help her.


reader Shannon said...

Getting it out your chest puppy ?


reader Shannon said...

Maybe, maybe not.


reader Shannon said...

I was answering Vangel, eedjeet.


reader Shannon said...

How do you know already ? I can't see anything from the French media...


reader Cogniscentum said...

Just offering you encouragement. The plain facts of the case are not sufficient, obviously, we need a cui bono analysis to get to the real root of the problem, eh?


reader Cogniscentum said...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/gunmen-storm-paris-satirical-newspaper-killing-at-least-11/2015/01/07/f358b17a-9660-11e4-aabd-d0b93ff613d5_story.html


reader davideisenstadt said...

you live....


reader davideisenstadt said...

his god's mother effed a jew...thats a tough pill for shannon to swallow.


reader davideisenstadt said...

Here...so you dont have to risk a fire in your home caused by trying to read the whole article

"Charlie Hebdo has lampooned a range of subjects, including popes, presidents, entertainers and others in addition to occasional pieces of serious journalism such as investigative stories. One cover depicted an Orthodox Jew kissing a Nazi soldier; another showed Pope Benedict XVI dancing with a member of the Swiss Guard."

yeah...no critique of the jew there...none at all.
My only hope is that you get to experience the joy of submission before a camel urine drinking idiot.


reader Cogniscentum said...

I guess they deserve sympathy then.


reader John Archer said...

It's very simple. The ONLY solution is a thorough ethnic cleansing of ALL muslimes from European soil.

Wake me up when someone finally throws the switch and they get around to the planning stage. Until then ... Y A W N ...

By the way, and before I go to bed, if any of you moral-maze solvers is still chewing on that one, here's an easy one for you to limber up on when you take a break:

Would you rather be a romper-stomping 'free spirit' under an all-white Nazi regime, or be subjected to a life of dhimmitude in a filthy muslime-run multi-ethnic turd-world shithole?

No wriggling now! Tudor Rules apply: tertium non datur.

Stark choices aid clarity of thought. :)


reader John Archer said...

"That is silly John, one cannot know which one is the winning side until the end of the war... so in your lesson the war never ends!

Hey, Shannon, I thought you Froggies were meant to be ace at the good old analitique! Now that HUGE non sequitur of yours, and its implications, is quite a tangled knot to unpick! Crafted in so few words too. Neat!

So I shan't bother. Instead, please hang on a moment while I fetch my tool. Don't worry my dear, it's not as bad as it sounds. I don't 'do' dirty talk anyway. No, it's just an antique cavalry sword I use for various things, but it's very good on knots too. OK, got it. Ready? Good.

Let me ask you this: IF the war ever ends, which side would YOU rather be on?

I do hope we don't have our first tiff over this.

And now to remove the cork from that nice bottle of champagne I got for us. DUCK IN CASE I MISS! :)

XXX


reader Tony said...

What? It isn't Putin's fault?! But they had Kalashnikov's.


reader QsaTheory said...

Aftermath

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmcd9iR21m4



Are you happy.


reader Swine flu said...

Nobody would have died, without a maybe.


reader Swine flu said...

You most certainly were, and I didn't like your answer.


reader John Archer said...

You might have a point there.

But I'm fucked if I know what it is.


reader BMWA1 said...

http://a.disquscdn.com/uploads/mediaembed/images/1602/4081/original.jpg


reader Shannon said...

Freedom of Speech will win.


reader Shannon said...

No, islamist recruiters lways target these guys...


reader Shannon said...

Still talking to me david ? :-)
I guess you have no choice ;-)


reader Shannon said...

Just so you know: a whole section of the police are investigating on other possibilities than only islamist terrorists ? That's what we were told last night on the main news.


reader Shannon said...

John, the cleansing has started but it is an intellectual one ;-, the best.


reader Luboš Motl said...

If you mean Sweden Democrats, and it doesn't really matter much which party you mean, it is in no way less "respectable" than the Greens or the Social Democrats, and suggestions to the contrary are just a matter of left-wing propaganda.


reader Luboš Motl said...

Except that Hamyd Mourad seems to have alibi and it has apparently been verified.


reader BMWA1 said...

2/3? Oh well, not yet psychic.


reader Peter F. said...

We relatively rationally thinking people are basically no less capable of and instinctively inclined to act murderously than are theistically or otherwise irrationally thinking folk.

On what, how, and with what intensity we pay actention (aggressively or otherwise) largely depends on our past individual conditioning (most likely also on epigenetically inherited tweaks to the way we develop/ed) and how we are currently situated/influenced.

As far as I am concerned, it is now high time for so called moderate Muslims in traditionally non-Muslim European countries -- I'm not including adult individuals born into the Islamic religion who nonetheless developed a relatively rational worldview, but those that may be considered moderate devotees/followers of Islamic dogma -- to start to do some very serious internal 'cultural cleansing' before they get unpleasant 'help' with doing so from people on the outside.

We are, definitely, still (and will remain) a species of tribal simians with exceptional inclination and capacity to raid murder and rape our neighbors.


reader Shannon said...

The police car on the Google map taken last August is because Charlie Hebdo had been under police protection for some time.
What is surprising about the murders is that those journalists were not islamophobes. They were just caricaturists of all religions or political parties. We have some very well known and popular islamophobes (thinkers) these days in France like Eric Zemmour and Alain Finkielkraut but they are never targeted by islamists. A few journalists are wondering why today.


reader RAF III said...

I think Vangel has revealed himself as a 'ronpaulian' (as Shannon might say). The same words, the same attempt to construct an argument from disconnected facts and asumed premises while ignoring anything to the contrary, etc.: http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/ron-paul-on-paris-attack-bad-foreign-policy-invites-retaliat?utm_term=.biOdN8dQ2m#.pjzJE7BzG

They should both stick to economics.


reader Shannon said...

Said Kouachi dropped his passport in the get away car. How silly huh ?


reader Luboš Motl said...

It's clear to me that the police car was a standard protection - it wasn't a coincidence.

The fact that they murdered people who were much less anti-Islamic than e.g. two us of, Shannon ;-), isn't really a coincidence. It follows from the fact that these Islamist radicals' tolerance is zero and they would prefer to kill not only real people who strongly dislike Islam – but even very moderate, undefined people who just slightly deviate from the total submission that that fucked-up religion demands.


reader Luboš Motl said...

Update: the two gunmen just conquere an Avia gas station 78 km near Villers-Cotteret north of Paris, see Street View:

https://www.google.cz/maps/@49.2517584,3.0587509,3a,75y,337.79h,74.56t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sQU9_Hhve_VIfuvj8bXXOug!2e0



I suppose that the end to the hunt could be speedy.


reader davideisenstadt said...

The jews are rampaging....god help the french!
Maybe their islamic friend scan help to restore order to that poor country.


reader davideisenstadt said...

I think what we are doing is called "writing" at least in the states, that is.


reader Shannon said...

Why don't you try your hand at knitting, david...


reader Shannon said...

They are on their way to Paris. I bet they will end up just like Mohammed Merah... shot dead.


reader Luboš Motl said...

Dear Shannon, you must have misunderstood something - probably misunderstood some French because it's a difficult language. ;-)


They hijacked the gas station in the link above which is in the middle of the road between Paris and Soissons, and they are stuck there.


reader Shannon said...

In Europe it is "typing" on the keyboard ;-), writing is with a pen, david.


reader Shannon said...

I can't stop feeling sorry for them... sorry.


reader Luboš Motl said...

Feeling sorry for these two countrymates of yours? Then sorry, I am feeling sorry about you, too, but yes, I am somewhat enthusiastically following what may be the last moments of their goddamn lives.


reader Shannon said...

I can't help it. I feel as sorry for the victims killed yesterday as I feel sorry for these two executioners and their imminent death... They were lost boys...


reader Luboš Motl said...

Right, they were, it's always sad. But just look at it rationally.


The Algerians may produce as many boys like that as they want, and they are far better in the bedroom - and outside bedrooms - than the original Frenchmen. And all the boys are almost the same, screaming Allahu Akbar etc.


reader davideisenstadt said...

I repost your comments above for all to read and revile

"I can't help it. I feel as sorry for the victims killed yesterday as I feel sorry for these two executioners and their imminent death... They were lost boys..."

so...you fell as sorry for murderers of 12 people as you do for their victims?
Why dont you take up thinking?


reader Tony said...

Is the whole Europe watching this? I didn't think Euros are into manhunts as much as Americans ;-)


reader Shannon said...

Well in my case I am sick at home so that's all I'm doing today... and I am so sad for these two guys... and I don't even understand why I am feeling that way... is it my being a mother ? I dunno....


reader davideisenstadt said...

Either way, its certainly not talking...
God help the dedicated french police...on their way to eradicate some jew terrorists.


reader Shannon said...

I am not rationally thinking today. I realise that.


reader davideisenstadt said...

One would think that you would be feeling more sorry for the victims' mothers and children, maybe the murderers mothers than the three people who together killed 12 human beings, and wounded a bunch more.
really.


reader Shannon said...

50/50


reader Luboš Motl said...

Dear Shannon, I hope you will regain your normal attitude soon enough.


These people don't need your compassion. They will go to the Islamic heaven - which is a suburb of my hell - and they will be given 72 virgins per capita over there, which is more than the number of women that I have *touched* in my life. ;-)


You may be dreaming about a world in which their lives have been used in a much better way but this dreamworld has nothing to do with the reality. These guys wanted to do what they did, and they probably wanted to die for that, too. Call it a part of God's plan.


reader OM said...

You're incredibly stupid even for someone who pretends to understand quantum physics that your idol Feynman admitted only liars claim to understand. Ever heard of false flag ops, mostly by your Jesuit comrades at CIA/NSA? Hey Jesuit freak, give us some more of that famous "even-handedness" of yours! Like in politics - like in science... LOL


reader Vangel said...

"Your posts are a perfect example of rationalization and ultimately justification of something that is simply utterly unacceptable."



I am sorry but where did I say that violence against innocent people is ever acceptable? My point is that when our governments go out and support extremist groups abroad we get the very predictable and inevitable blowback. That is what we got.


Note that I opposed the NATO adventures in Africa because they killed innocent people and made Western countries less safe. I argued that those adventures were undertaken to divert attention to the terrible job that those Western governments were doing because they were meddling with their economies at home and had made promises that they are not capable of meeting.


Let me be clear that I oppose the initiation of force against others and only consider force to be legitimate if used for real defence purposes when there are real threats. The lens through which I view the world is not particularly ideological but philosophical and logical. I look at human action and find that revolutionaries and radicals are created by moral judgments that they make themselves. Nobody wants to bomb us because we eat pork, make porn, or listen to rap. They hate us because we kill their friends and families and because we support dictators that oppress those friends and families.


reader Luboš Motl said...

I haven't seen the coordinates anywhere but my guess is that they left the car on this road


https://www.google.cz/maps/@49.2337589,2.9236072,3a,75y,191.81h,64.68t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sDFejs5qH9r2e6p5ZOhsACw!2e0



before they walked into Crépy-en-Valois on the right side (14,000 inhabitants) where they are hiding in a house.


reader Vangel said...

"See, France did something there, so you have a reaction here."

Actions have consequences. You use a drone to fire a missile at a wedding party and the families of those that were killed might begin to hate you. You arm radicals that oppose Russia in Afghanistan and those radicals might use their training to fly airplanes into buildings when you invade a Muslim country and station foreign troops near Muslim holy sites.

Note that there is a solution to this. Those that want to give weapons and money to other nations or want to fight in foreign wars should be free to take their own money and use their own bodies and get involved. If you oppose some foreign government and want to help overthrow it go there and fund the operations yourself. Do not steal money from the taxpayers so that your friends in the war party can get bigger paycheques and paint a big target on all Americans/Canadians/Frenchmen/Englismen, etc.

"The moral of your story is to never, ever offend a certain group's sensibilities or they'll kill a few Frenchmen in response."

No. I did not argue against offending others because I do that a lot myself and see no logical argument against it. We all have positions that we take and nobody has the right not to be offended. My argument is against the French government creating radicals because of its meddling in the affairs of other countries. France needs to stop bombing Arab countries and killing innocent Muslims abroad. If it did that and if it respected the liberty of all of its citizens equally there would be little moral outrage to support extremist actions by anyone.

Allan Bloom and Thomas Pangle used to talk about the motivation of Marxist suicide bombers in Sri Lanka when they were explaining Plato's guardian class in The Republic. Their deductive arguments were supported by empirical data decades after they were first made but are still not talked about in the neoconservative circles that were supposedly inspired by the teachings of Leo Strauss and students like Allan Bloom. In this debate logic has been set aside in favour of emotion and narrative just as it has in the climate change debate. What gets to me is that some very intelligent people are letting their emotions get in the way and still refuse to look at the situations objectively.

"This type of logic is that of a culture that has become too stupid to survive, or maybe you simply like acting like you are part of the fifth column yourself."

That is not what I have written. What I have argued is that Western governments have done some very stupid things that violated basic principles. They meddled in the affairs of other countries, have occupied other countries, trained extremists to fight in other countries, and killed innocent people in other countries. They have adopted a very progressive view and have justified immoral acts by claiming that they can spread 'democracy' abroad even as they cheer sham elections that put into power puppet dictators that will transfer wealth from their people into the hands of companies that are the 'friends' of Western governments.

My position is a simple one. Stop meddling in the affairs of other people and do not violate the rights that are the only legitimate reason for governments to exist. The same is true at home. Stop meddling in the economy and stop trying to engineer society. As Canada's best Prime Minister once said, “The role of government is not to force action in any one direction but to remove barriers to man’s own efforts to undertake personal and social improvement.” We would all be better off if our governments understood that.


reader Vangel said...

I agree that not all people cheered. But note that the French public supported the actions of the French government, which acted in the name of that public. There were few serious protests against the bombings and no interest in France today about getting out of NATO.


I prefer a totally different approach. When English Canada wanted to join Britain in its war in South Africa the Prime Minister, Wilfrid Laurier, told English Canadians that they were free to volunteer and fight under English officers but not under a Canadian flag or for Canada. I suggest the same thing today. All those people who support an Afghan or Iraqi occupation and want us to fight in Syria or the Sudan should go and join the fighting without pretence that they are fighting for their fellow citizens or with the approval of their fellow citizens.


reader Luboš Motl said...

Dear Shannon and Vangel, I would like to remind you that this terror attack had nothing to do with French drones or various French military interventions here or there, so whether these drone attacks or interventions were wise has virtually no implications for the analysis of this terror attack.


This terror attack was a knee-jerk reaction of bigots who have been trained to believe that the value of the human life is less than the value of a "blasphemous" cartoon.


reader Shannon said...

I think France failed helping these guys properly when they were growing up. They were orphans! I am sick of hearing the people on the radio crying about the deaths at Charlie Hebdo. Boohoo... they were the same people insulting the Front National or anyone who would say there were too many immigrants and it is a danger to the peace in our country.
Sick of it.


reader Luboš Motl said...

Sorry, Shannon, but their criticism against Front National isn't a sufficient excuse of the assassination, either.


reader Shannon said...

Sorry Lubos, I don't get you here... It is not the terrorists who are criticising the Front National. What I am saying is that it is the people who are mourning the deaths today who are the same ones who have been demonizing the Front National. On Sunday all the policital parties are calling for a national unity for freedom of speech etc... but they don't want the Front National ! "unity" they say... a party that represents 30% of French people !...


reader Luboš Motl said...

I don't see any inconsistency here. Everyone has the freedom to criticize both Islamic terrorists *and* Front National, can't he? After all, the journalists were against nationalists as well, so it's not surprising that those who are very sad about the death of the staff are often foes of Front National, too.


At any rate, I don't think that Marine Le Pen and others from Front National are sharing your compassion with the Algerian French guys so it is you whose attitude is most puzzling.


reader Gordon said...

Hmm, or any other day, it seems :)


reader Gordon said...

Yes, David, Sharia law would do wonders for focusing Shannon's mind,
such as it is...it is such a liberating and "jew-free" experience....


reader Gordon said...

Shannon's logic (?) is similar to that of a burglar's suing a homeowner because he strained his back carrying the loot out of the house.
We are becoming a society of pseudo-victims, while the real ones are ignored.


reader strictly speaking... said...

Huh, apparently the name of the policeman who was brutally killed in the video when he tried to stop the terrorists has surfaced.



His name was Ahmed Merabet. He deserves to be treated as a martyr, and that his name should not be forgotten.


reader Gordon said...

Too true, Peter. Fortunately, I am an alien :)


reader Cogniscentum said...

I don't doubt it.


Hey, I like France. I agree with you that Libya and Syria are none of the West's business. I have already said that I now consider my support for the Iraq war a mistake. I am just saying that the facts are pretty clear here.


One thing I don't do is pretend that opposition to wars like that is not, in fact, tacit support for horrific dictators.


reader Cogniscentum said...

Freedom of speech is not the usual order of human affairs. Even the Greeks forced Socrates to drink poison.


reader Shannon said...

Wink wink ;)


reader Cogniscentum said...

And they ridiculed George W Bush for claiming that the terrorists hate out freedom.


reader Shannon said...

Compassion transcends reason, hence my "puzzling" stance here, sorry about that. Back to reason now. Luboš, what do you think France should do with their French radical islamists ?


reader Rehbock said...

I agree speech is often suppressed. Shannon is right though free speech will prevail against these terrorists, fools and martyrs.


reader Lambda French Guy said...

I read your post about feminism recently. But until this tragedy, I had not realized how USA had been corrupted by political correctness. Some people I was following on Twitter and who looked like reasonable persons (computer scientist, engineer ...) retweeted such insane piece of shit from an US web site that I was totally shocked and wanted to vomit.

A web site (that I won't link) which was saying that this magazine was a racist, misogynist paper written by white men.

As a French who has been following the history of this magazine it was insupportable and more insupportable to see all those assholes retweeting it and agreeing.

The kind of humor and jokes found in this magazine is such a part of French culture that we have some words for it like : Gauloiseries; Rabelaisien; paillard.

The goal of this magazine has always been to make people think, question themselve by using this kind of humor part of French culture and without any anger. Their role was to make fun of serious things. To joke at people representing authority. To highlight the irrationality of postures; the hypocrisy; the egos etc ...

US people claim they are free because (before the patriot act) their laws were ensuring them more freedom than in France. But because of their political correctness madness and cowardice they have surrendered to all communautarism (not sure it is the right English word). Main US newspaper have clearly demonstrated this.

France people may have less freedom because of their socialist state but as consequence each French is a rebel. It is very difficult in France to impose things even by law. You get strike very easily. Magazines like Charlie Hedbo are a manifestation of this rebel mindset. Not surrendering to the owner of power whoever they are. French people are very difficult to govern or to manage.


reader Shannon said...

Mais non Gordon! Pfffff... Lol. Don't be silly :-) I just think that we, as a society, are responsible for our orphans, Do you agree ?


reader scooby said...

Perhaps it is time that we (the French) revisit our policy of preventing these extremists from travelling to Irak or Syria to join their fellow jihadist fighters. Instead we should help them. But first tag them with some kind of GPS location system so that the smart bombs know where to find them.


reader NumCracker said...

"Who You Gonna Call?" http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/32/BOPE1.jpg


reader Mark said...

If the global climate thread is true, the decision of Francis is OK. If the global climate thread is false, the decision of Francis is irrelevant. It is hysterical to say about "polarization of Catholic Church".

This Pope is much better than his predecessors, including the charismatic Jhon Paul II because this Pope has talked about conflictive issues of this church (the status of high range catholic authorities, the dialog christian - muslim, the poverty, the excessive luxury, etc). It is not about a basic label "leftist", it is a human and basic aspect of being empathic, in another way, we are only a miserable and lonely being.

Cheers!

"The Pope's decision to link himself with one of the most atrocious and
kitschy pseudoscientific myths of the present is unfortunate and
dangerous for the future of the Catholic Church. As a non-Catholic, I
don't really care much but I think that the Catholics should care. To
say the least, such climate activism is likely to polarize or split the
Catholic Church. And because prophesies and other statements by the
climate fearmongers are being proven wrong on a daily basis, the
assumption of papal infallibility is guaranteed to be questioned."


reader Gene Day said...

I actually have empathy for your feelings about these two killers, Shannon. It is also possible to feel sorry for Anders Brevik, Timothy McVeigh and Djokar Tsarnaev. All were lost souls with a horribly distorted view of the world and their place in it and all were someone’s child.
I don’t know why you have it in for my country, Shannon. We are just the same as everyone else and your country and mine have been allies for centuries.


reader Gene Day said...

Empathy is an admirable trait, Shannon. Of course it has everything to do with your being a mother.


reader Shannon said...

Better call Saul :-)

http://www.bettercallsaul.com/


reader Shannon said...

Thank you Gene.


reader NumCracker said...

I see Shannon, so you are a Kardecist, then most likely you mean Samuel (not Saul): "Bring up Samuel for me." ( https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Samuel+28&version=ESV ) ;-)


reader Vangel said...

The term is called blowback. When we decided that it was a good idea to station troops in Muslim countries and to support Muslim dictators some of the extremists that we had trained to fight our enemies turned their sights on us. When we tell young Muslim men to go to Syria or Libya and fight for our side alongside the extremists who are trying to take over the governments in those countries why would we think that they will be peace loving people when they get back to the Western countries from which they came?


reader John Archer said...

"...but no country expects its citizens to kill their fellow citizens in response."

There's some egregious stuff—wittingly or not—packed into the expression of that sentiment that shouldn't get a free pass.

On the face of it, it sounds to be one of the most reasonable things a reasonable person could say. After all, who could possibly disagree and say the expectation should be otherwise?

Well, I can for one. Watch the pea.

It's the kind of statement, too, that is typically offered up to target bozo audiences (that of the BBC's Question Time for instance) in a very self-righteous manner by 'liberal' scum politicos and other 'progressive' commentators, all to big rounds of applause. But these same scumbags are the ones ultimately responsible for the killings that are the subject of the discussion.

By using the nice cuddly term 'fellow citizen' they're pulling a fast one. They're pulling a fast one because the people they're talking about are cuddly 'fellow citizens' in name only, merely decreed so by an out-of-control political class unaccountable to ACTUAL citizens. The ACTUAL citizens never consented to the influx of these wonderful 'other' fellow citizens, nor would they have done so if they'd ever had the chance to express their wishes on the matter. Quite the contrary in fact. But they were never given that chance, and deliberately so because their distinctly unrepresentative scumbag class was intent on FORCING a hideously alien demographic time-bomb on them which they knew would be rejected outright if put to a vote. (Incidentally, it is hard to think of a more UNDEMOCRATIC manoeuvre than to undermine the very demos upon which a supposed democracy is based — it takes high treason to an altitude beyond the stars.)

Now, had the ACTUAL citizens been given the choice then one of the factors that would undoubtedly have come up for mindful consideration is PRECISELY the kind of thing we are witnessing now. This is the "rivers of blood" consideration, the expectation of which is fucking CONSIDERABLE.

So NO! Any country can WELL expect these citizens to kill their fellow citizens "in response" when those citizens are in no way fellow citizens themselves and never could be because they hail from a hideously alien anthropoid demographic with a murderous simian culture.

To expect otherwise is to be terminally stupid — indeed so much so as to collect ALL the gold medals at the Darwin's-Loser Olympics.


reader Vangel said...

How ironic. One of the reason why you have such events is because we use Reaper drones to kill innocent people abroad. We have killed thousands of innocent civilians abroad by the use of such weapons yet remain silent. But when two extremists morons kill 13 people in our countries we panic and decide to give up some more of our liberty to the war advocates that created this mess in the first place. France will not collapse because of some external or internal Muslim attack. It will fall apart because it has abandoned morality and rationality and allows murderers to keep advocating more and more military adventurism that produce more and more such events.


reader Shannon said...

Good to see I am not alone. I like to give a hard time to our unitedstatian friends, just to keep it even ;-)


reader Vangel said...

"This horrendous, but typical muslim act...

It is not typical at all and not essentially a Muslim act. Revolutionaries and radicals have always used terror to try to advance their cause. Ironically, both the government of France and the Muslim radicals are suffering from the same problem; both are engaged in campaigns that would try to control human action as it really is. I suggest reading Conrad's, The Secret Agent for some illumination. Note that on both sides of this fight you have collectivists and in the middle are innocent people who mostly want to be left alone.

"Most immigrants make at least some effort to integrate and to respect the laws and culture of the country that they move to."



There is no evidence that Muslims assimilate at a slower pace than Jews or your typical Irish or Italian Catholics, or East European Eastern Orthodox Christians. One of the problems in the EU comes from the barriers that are erected to protect white European unionized jobs. Loosen up the restrictions and free markets and most Muslims will be too busy earning a living to worry about some supposed injustice done to them.


reader Vangel said...

Frankly, we got exactly what the anti-war people predicted when they told Obama, Harper, Cameron and Sarkozy not to bomb Libya or to attack Syria. The people who have done this were probably trained to fight in those countries and were encouraged to attack regimes that our governments wanted overthrown. In the intelligence community this is known as blowback but our politicians keep ignoring it. The media does not care because it is on the side of the politicians and loves how conflict increases ratings at a time when most of the mainstream news outfits are dying a slow death as viewers move to more reliable sources.


reader TomVonk said...

At this moment as I write the 2 bastards are probably cowering in mud inside some forest a few km far from my home.
The region is surrounded by 9 650 soldiers and special forces.
I guess that they will suicide or be killed within 48 hours what is a pity because they should be caught, interrogated, tried and sentenced to death (which should be reactivated for scum no more belonging to homo sapiens).
.
However there is one things the gets me puzzled.
Since yesterday I have heard a megaton of strong words from the President through political, religious and cultural leaders.
"France is now in war.", "We will not tolerate such barbaric crimes.", "A reaction of exceptionnal strength is necessary", "This is a fight for freedom" and much more of the same kind.
These are the words and what about acts ?
Well people walk with candles and small cartoons saying "We are all Charlie".
There will be a demonstration Sunday, certainly to reiterate how shocked we are, how bad they are and how such things can't be tolerated. There will be large writings "We are all united against terrorism". Etc.
.
Hmmm.
Do these people think that the islamic terrorists will be impressed by candles ? Or by small bits of paper ?
That wars are fought with songs and flowers ?
WTF do they REALLY want to do if they think this is a war ?
For instance do they intend to send trained soldiers and material to kill every and each of the bastards who took a 1 way ticket from France to Syria to fight with DAESH ?
We now know that the beast who decapitated the American journalists was a French born arab.
There are about 2 000 of them. They make videos threatening that killing all French unbeliever is a sacred duty for any moslim in France. "Shoot them, knife them, poison them. And if you can't, drive over them with a car." - this is their islamic recipe.
So what will be DONE to terminate all these pseudo french ?
And what about the radical muslims who preach Jihad Inside France ?
There are only 3.5 millions muslims (6% of the population). How long it takes to put all radicals lifelong in prison ?
Especially that most moslims pretend publicly that they have nothing in common with radicals and criminals.
Time to put their déclarations to proof ?
.
Somehow however I am afraid that it will only stay with candles and "We are all Charlie". E.g dead.


reader Shannon said...

It could be a solution Scooby, and where would you put the tag ? On their carte Vitale ?😉


reader Vangel said...

Thank you for the video link. I have never hidden my admiration for Dr. Paul because he has been right about this all along.


The initiation of violence by our governments was just as wrong as the initiation of violence against innocent Westerners. The war parties advocated violence and foreign interventionism so the predicted attacks have been observed.


reader Vangel said...

My favourite neocon professor, when the debate was about the motivation of Tamil Tiger suicide bombers pointed out that it is an age thing, not a generation thing. Thymos was an affliction that was most common among the young who did not have sufficient life experience to either figure things out or to have the spiritedness be beaten out of them by the reality of daily living that face most adults. When Robert Pape did his research a decade ago he found that all of the modern suicide campaigns he examined took place in areas where there was a presence of a foreign occupying power and that occupying power was a democracy.


reader Uncle Al said...

"Find out who they are.
Kill them all.
Kill their wives.
Kill their children.
Kill their parents.
Kill their friends.
Kill their neighbors.
Kill their animals.
Salt the earth where they lived.
Mount their heads on pikes on the steps of the Capitol."
- Ted Morris, Las Cruces, 12 September 2001

http://www.zianet.com/tedmorris/dg/dghuntingpermit.gif


reader Vangel said...

"Dear Shannon and Vangel, I would like to remind you that this terror attack had nothing to do with French drones or various French military interventions here or there, so whether these drone attacks or interventions were wise has virtually no implications for the analysis of this terror attack."


Perhaps. But the way I see it, one of the huge motivating factors for young extremists is the injustice that they perceive happening. It seems to me that if the Americans were shooting missiles from drones into Prague's cafes and killing innocent civilians some of your fellow countrymen who happened to live in the US might be angry enough to retaliate.


Note that neither you nor I can make a sound judgment about motivation. But I am willing to make a small wager that some of the people connected with this had gone to Libya or Syria to receive training alongside the forces supported by the French government.


I also have pointed out that the sense of injustice also comes from material factors since French law prohibits the hiring of low skilled Muslim kids at the prevailing market rates. They do this because they want to protect higher paying French jobs that are held by white French nationals.


Note that both the French meddling abroad and the meddling in the economy happen because the French government wants the public to be distracted from its failures for as long as possible.


The eventual winner in all this is likely to be Russia and the Eurasian block that it is trying to set up. The next French government is likely to consider abandoning NATO and joining a free trade zone that includes Germany, much of Eastern Europe, Russia and some of the Central Asian republics as they look away from the problems that the US is creating and look to markets in the East.


reader Vangel said...

What freedom? Americans can be fined or jailed for having a toilet tank that is too big or for selling shower heads that permit flow rates that are too high. They can be thrown out of school for saying the wrong thing or by being accused of wrongdoing without any proof.


Bush was a fool not only to think that anyone hates the US because it is free but for thinking that it was free in the first place.


reader Swine flu said...

Blowback, blowback. If every action produced a reaction, we would have no civilization but pure savagery.

Immigrants owe allegience to the country they choose to live in. The Supreme Commander of the US forces in WWII was Eisenhauer, and the US was fighting Germany. That's how it's supposed to work. When that's not how it works, something is wrong with that immigrant group and must be fixed.

The fixing may need to happen on the side of the hosts (e.g., not to discriminate against legal immigrants when it comes to jobs) or the group itself, but what foreign policy the country chooses to conduct is between the government and the democratic process, including demonstrations and civil disobedience in the more extreme cases. But not terrorism. End of story, and anyone who doesn't get it is an apologist for these murders. You are one of them, even though you will whine that you don't "condone" these acts. By "explaining" them, you condone them.


reader Swine flu said...

"Note that on both sides of this fight you have collectivists ..."

Are you a libertarian? Are you an isolationist? I generally like people who don't like collectivism, but you have clearly been upset about the French foreign policy and as a result view this terrorist act in a way that lends what you regards as a proof of your non-interventionist ideas. It is important to consider other possibilities as well, however.

"Loosen up the restrictions and free markets and most Muslims will be too
busy earning a living to worry about some supposed injustice done to
them."


The US is a good laboratory for this suggestion. There is less discrimnation against Muslims here than in Europe, and they do better economically in the US as a result. After all, the US is all about making money, or so they say. However, we have had acts of Islamist terrorism here too - Major Hasan's actions somehow ended up classified as "workplace violence", but it was a clear act of terrorism.



I think it is a mistake not to consider additional factors. Your thinking is a bit too one-track and neglects cultural factors.


reader John Archer said...

:)

However, his political and sociological postings sometimes mirror sentiments not a million miles from my own, so he can't be all bad! :)


reader John Archer said...

I can live with that, no problem! :)


reader John Archer said...

:) Yes.

A Jewish friend of a Jewish friend told me that Jews and Catholics do indeed share the guilt thing!

I think he said it was Jewish mothers that were mostly responsible in their case, so the chances are you've got only a very mild version.


reader John Archer said...

:)

It would certainly be a front runner in the pour-encourager-les-autres stakes and I'd guess ordinarily ought nicely to satisfy a desire for revenge in most cases.

But is it really any longer sufficient? Perhaps we need a more robust response these days?

That should make for a nice discussion.


reader Vangel said...

Free speech? Ever been to a campus in a Western country recently? Go and try to have a discussion about feminism, race, or even climate change and see how much censorship there really is. We can make fun of religion because few of us are actually religious in the sense of believing in a deity. But offend the Gaia worshipers in the environmental movement or the Great Mother worshipers in feminist circles and you will be threatened and attacked mercilessly.


reader Swine flu said...

If an immigrant can't become a "fellow citizen", he shouldn't even be here. That's the whole point.


reader Gene Day said...

The probability of reforming these guys to the extent that they could be returned safely to society


reader Shannon said...

TomVonk, I think French people are more terrorised at the idea of being seen as racists or xenophobics than being controlled by islamists.


reader Vangel said...

I could not disagree more with many of your comments. First of all, how do we get to decide if people are allowed to live in a country? If I own a factory and can get Polish workers who will work for a third less than domestic workers why should I not be able to offer them jobs? If I want to offer jobs to Jews fleeing persecution in Germany should I not be able to offer them jobs so that they can get off the boat? And how do I justify denying people the right to work at the prevailing market price if they are already in the country and have come from a colony rather than from another part of France?


This entire debate is ultimately down to individual rights, a point that is lost on apologists who defend the initiators of violence on both sides of this debate. And this debate is not new. We have heard it all before except at that time the dangers came from immigrants who were supposedly Papists like the Irish and Italians, Jews from Eastern Europe, Chinese, Japanese, or even Germans. And it was no more true then that it is now. While some people from all communities will be violent and break the law the typical immigrant just wants to be left alone and allowed to work.


Note that these guys hardly fit the profile of pious Muslims. They drank, smoked pot, watched porn, and had all kinds of habits that made them virtually indistinguishable from the typical young Frenchman. They were not driven by religious motives but by a need to make a political statement against what they perceived to be unjust acts by Western governments in the name of their people.


reader Vangel said...

"These are the words and what about acts ?...


You may have missed it. French planes did bomb Libya and the French military did help the Islamic extremists fight Assad in Syria. How much more action do you want?


reader Vangel said...

French? Been to an American campus lately? Can't commit an offence by insulting Gaia or the Great Mother. Can't support free markets or you will offend Saint Karl and his followers. Don't even have sex with a young lady who has had a beer or you risk being expelled or even jailed for rape. And don't oppose anything that the war parties support because you risk being labelled as a supporter of the enemy, whoever that happens to be at the moment.


reader John Archer said...

"If an immigrant can't become a "fellow citizen", he shouldn't even be here. That's the whole point."

No it is NOT the WHOLE point. It is only a PART, and a very small one at that*. It is certainly a necessary condition but it is nowhere near being anything like SUFFICIENT. You have evaded the CENTRAL issue — that of the CONSENT of the people.

But you have plenty of company. Very few seem to get this point, or if they do they 'conveniently' gloss over or ignore it for one reason or another, in most cases because they find it unanswerable and thus a great impediment to promulgating their holier-than-thou moralising bullshit.

What's your reason for evading it.

* Ask the Scots.


reader heavy metal said...

you bunch of craven hypocrites. You say nothing as france and the rest of the West are choked to death of mass thiallrd world immigration. you stand and cheer and collaborate for a little status in this time of genocide against the European derived peoples everywhere. Craven cowards collaborators whining out your ALLOWED PERMITTED hacks on Islamic peoples.


reader Vangel said...

But isn't that what caused much of the problem? We did kill them, their families, or helped put into power dictators who did it for us. How about minding our own business and only using force when we need to defend ourselves?


reader Vangel said...

"Blowback, blowback. If every action produced a reaction, we would have no civilization but pure savagery."

I am talking about invading and occupying other countries, installing vicious puppet dictators and other such actions, not insulting someone or putting a tariff on a product. Look at the Pape study; all suicide bombing campaigns involved occupations by foreign armies.

"Immigrants owe allegience to the country they choose to live in."

You are confusing the country with the government of a country. Many citizens hate the government too.

"The Supreme Commander of the US forces in WWII was Eisenhauer, and the US was fighting Germany. That's how it's supposed to work."

Well, now we are bombing countries like Libya and Syria and are not fighting a nation but small groups within a nation. That is not how it is supposed to work. NATO was formed to defend Europe from the Warsaw Pact, not install a new government that we like in Africa. Eisenhower was a moral man who would not shoot missiles at wedding parties.

The fixing may need to happen on the side of the hosts (e.g., not to discriminate against legal immigrants when it comes to jobs) or the group itself, but what foreign policy the country chooses to conduct is between the government and the democratic process, including demonstrations and civil disobedience in the more extreme cases.

Well, if you do shoot missiles at wedding parties and kill civilians or install puppet dictators abroad do not be surprised when there is blowback at home. And since when was the setting of foreign policy a democratic process? Were Americans asked if they wanted to invade Iraq, which had nothing to do with 9/11 and did not have WMDs, or were they told that Iraq would be invaded because it supposedly had something to do with 9/11 and did have WMDs? Was the French public asked if their planes should bomb Libya or was it told that it was a NATO decision?

But not terrorism. End of story, and anyone who doesn't get it is an apologist for these murders.



Who is apologizing for murderers other than the war party people when it is us who are murdering innocent civilians? I do not support terrorists in France or anywhere else and want to see them prosecuted. But when my government kills innocent people abroad I want the people who make those decisions to be prosecuted too. Why is Bush not being tried for his crimes against the people of Iraq? Why are Obama and Cameron not being tried for killing all those civilians in Libya and Syria or Clinton for the civilians he killed in Serbia?


reader John Archer said...

"I could not disagree more with many of your comments."

Nor I yours. Fancy that!

"If I own a factory and can get Polish workers who will work for a third less than domestic workers why should I not be able to offer them jobs?"

What you do in Canada or wherever you are is none of my business.

But if you were here in England then the answer in short is that it's not solely your business that's affected. If you housed and fed them etc and kept them on your property at all times so that the rest of us didn't have to see or interact with them then you might have a case. Failing that you don't. In fact it's noble philanthropists like you giving these "poor people" jobs who SOCIALISE the bulk of their labour costs and vastly reduce social amenity and up the costs for the rest of us.

Similarly for your other scenarios. I for one am under no obligation to any of the world's poor or persecuted, and people like you who would push such obligations onto me and my fellow countrymen without our consent are a very clear threat.

Your kind is very much part of the problem. Indeed, when it comes down to it, I wouldn't differentiate between you and muslimes. In the end you amount to the same thing.

Now you address the CONSENT issue. You fucking arsehole. You're full of shit.


reader TomVonk said...

Are you really dense or are you just simulating ?
It was not a handful of planes in Libya for a short time years ago that has anything to do with the discourses in France today.
If we are in war, then we go to war.
Let's start with the 2000 pseudo french animals in Syria and all the radicals well known over there.
It is not like there is lack of relevant islamic radical targets.
.
But if we are not in war, then let's just set up candles , write we are all Charlie and let's shut upshut up about defending freedom or going in war against islamists.
.
The US didn't put candles and wear papers "We are all Honolulu" after Pearl Harbour.
What I want is that words have meaning and acts are in accordance.


reader davideisenstadt said...

uh...sure.


reader Swine flu said...

"No it is NOT the WHOLE point. It is only a PART, and a very small one at that*."


Umm, when I used the phrase "the whole point", it referred only to the topic of my original post, which was far narrower in scope than the general issue of immigration. As someone living 60 miles from the US-Mexican border, I am not unaware of the other issues you raise, but I am only talking about the necessary conditions here - you will probably agree that if we have to worry about propensity towards committing terrorist acts in his adoptive country, we are a long way from having to worry about anything else.


reader Tony said...

Who we? Lubos, Uncle Al, Shannon, Dilaton and the rest of us warriors?

Wake me up when the UK and the rest of the EU elects the party that wants to and will limit the immigration accordingly.


reader John Archer said...

"<>...but I am only talking about the necessary conditions here...<>"

Well, again, no you're not — you've only mentioned ONE of them while leaving the most important out, namely consent.

But let's not get into a bun fight over this.

And by the way, I'm not having at go at you or your points per se (I happen to agree with them but I suppose I could have been a little less blunt in expressing myself) but the almost universal tendency to ignore this consent issue (wittingly or otherwise) and its absolutely fundamental necessity for any democracy worthy of the name. Your comment merely presented me with the opportunity to say so. Rather it's very much the Vandangle type that I have in my sights. As you can see, it's just a shame he didn't stick his head up earlier then I needn't have bothered you. But you did help smoke him out. So thanks for that. :)

P.S. Although there's a fair amount of his stuff I agree with, this issue kills it for me.


reader Peter F. said...

Sorry to but in, Shannon, but this thread is entertaining. :)
Have a question for you: What denomination of atheism would you think is the closest to "100% sure"?
;->
Wink nudge wink nudge!


reader John Archer said...

FUCK THE EU. END IT NOW!

THE EU IS A HUGE PART OF THE PROBLEM. But apparently you are unaware of this. No longer now I hope.

But to answer your question, by "we" I primarily mean Britons.

However, since we in the West generally share the problem I'd be very happy to have friendly cooperation on this from patriots in other nations.

"...will limit the immigration..."

That's no solution. It needs to be completely reversed. There was no consent to any of it. Worse, it was very much against our wishes. Nothing could be more UNdemocratic.

All out! End of.


reader John said...

Lubos, a minor point in your interesting comment. In 2011 Charlie Hebdo did not try to please 'the Muslims' with that issue, the title Charia Hebdo was ironic and the fact that the Prophet was the editor was supposed to be satirical, and critical...They never really want to please and bow, but rather provoke and make you laugh, and think. That is part of why they ended up being attacked later that year.


reader John Archer said...

That stick in your hand ... you're holding the wrong end!

Now go off and get a compass because you're facing the wrong way too.


reader Tony said...

Well, you can't take a second step if you can't even take a first.

With lefties 'we are all the same and why can't we all live together in peace' and the oligarchy need for cheap labor and cheap voters, it will be tough. Let's be honest - impossible.

My theory is that Britons, just for example, need to start fucking a lot more, without condoms and other contraceptives.

That will create a natural counter pressure.


reader donqpublic said...

The French have a problem. As I understand it, of 65 million French people ten percent or 6.5 million are Muslims living in "no go zones" where the French police basically have ceded French sovereignty to Muslim gangs in ghettos. One percent or sixty five thousand Muslims are probably Islamic radicals or agree with that traditional ideology. The French police that were killed were unarmed, and one was a Muslim officer. The civilian victims were all unarmed. France is a gun free zone, the perfect "free fire zone" for Muslims on a mission from God. French intelligence knew of these killers and did nothing that stopped the incident from happening. There are solutions: do away with "no go zones" and police them with extreme prejudice; halt further Muslim immigration; revoke the citizenship of career Muslims on jihad and general career criminals (thieves, rapists, etc); impose forced deportations for Muslim criminal recidivists; impose forced deportations on able bodied Muslims that won't integrate, get off state welfare, learn French, or take an oath of allegiance; impose the death penalty for such acts of political terror that result in death; arm the police; and allow law abiding French citizens to arm themselves so they're not living and dying in a shooting gallery; surely the French are entitled to practice the basic human right of self defense instead of being politically correct pigs for the slaughter?


reader Tony said...

I'm sure feminists have their dirty hands in this procreation issue too.


reader andy said...

No. You're just wrong. Read the Koran and Haditha. Islam tried to conquer the world in the 7th century, and they never stopped trying.


reader Shannon said...

The main cause of our French predicament is the politically correctness and the terror of naming things. Imagine we arenot allowed to hold ethnic statistics ! The terror doesn't come from the terrorist but from the power in place with the PC, the French laws that punish people for any racist or antisemit comments... Freedom of speech is a illusion here.


reader Luboš Motl said...

I was joking, of course, John, I think that every visualization like that makes similar Muslims very angry.


reader QsaTheory said...

Tony, John is not telling you the full story. I have lived in both of your countries. In Europe and particularly UK their young has become very lazy, many of them virtually live in pubs. They just envy the hard working subcontinent people.. I have many friends who settled in the US, generally Americans look at them with respect because they appreciate compitition. I can say much more but it is hard to type on mobile.


reader Luboš Motl said...

Friday: the hostage crisis is probably taking place in this warehouse now:

https://www.google.fr/maps/place/Montagny-Sainte-F%C3%A9licit%C3%A9/@49.060092,2.7012979,389m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x47e6242cc57e1db5:0x40af13e81643670


reader Shannon said...

They are now entrenched in an engineering company and we believe they have one hostage with them...


reader Cogniscentum said...

Who actually rolled tanks?


reader Cogniscentum said...

Well, a long tradition of terrorism, hostage taking, and general violence on the open seas by North African Muslims contradicts what you say. Going back to the burning of Rome's bread basket in North Africa.


Rome taught us one thing, ignore these pests at your own peril.


reader Cogniscentum said...

Cheer up Shannon, they are shooting Jews now in Paris!


reader davideisenstadt said...

um sure... just what we're islamic people trying to do outside the gates of vienna?


reader davideisenstadt said...

a mobile invented by...?
oh yeah those nobel prize winning scientists funded by the house od said.
trillions of oil wealth and still your people live a live of privation.
Ever wonder why?


reader davideisenstadt said...

I think people are responsible for their own actions.


reader Shannon said...

Oh so now they are true nasty terrorists, right ?


reader Shannon said...

Sure, david, but some people are less responsible than some others...


reader Shannon said...

France has signed for the recognition of Palestine a couple of weeks ago (along with Russia and China)... Israel is mad at France. So why do these terrorists attack France ?.... Mystery.


reader NikFromNYC said...

“The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam.” - B. Hussein Obama, 2012


reader davideisenstadt said...

well, I guess those nasty jews who had the gall to shop deserved what they got?
You guys asked for this, youre now getting it.
good luck.


reader Vangel said...

The EU is clearly a problem. Isolating Britain by cutting off immigration is not a solution to anything. How about respecting property rights as a start.


reader davideisenstadt said...

Think it has something to do with the concept that these islamic people think that your culture is weak and decadent, that you permit the blaspheming of the prophet?
They probably look at your country's recent history with their onetime ally the nazis and rightfully, perhaps think that you guys aren't capable or willing to defend the liberty paid for with british australian canadaian and american blood.


reader cynholt said...

From the training of Afghan Mujaheddin in the 80's to the latest Pentagon announcement to train 5000 Syrian 'rebels' per year, (when they say 'Syrian' they mean being sent into Syria from all corners), what the Pentagon and other Western governments foreign policies, (including France) have assured, is plenty more future savage blow-back events, plenty more contracts for the arms industry and more ramping up of blanket surveillance on us all.


reader Shannon said...

Our culture is indeed decadent, actually. Sorry david but, as a unitedstatian, your opinion on my country can only be flawed ;-)


reader cynholt said...

Every people on earth is warlike - including Westerners and everyone else. It's in human DNA. Religion simply short circuits rationality and enables the human beast to run wild while thinking it is doing the bidding of the Almighty.


reader Cogniscentum said...

So you think if you sell out the Jews, the Crocodile will eat you last?


reader Shannon said...

Do you know what a mystery is ?


reader Cogniscentum said...

No, they were always nasty. I just thought that the death of a couple of Jews would cheer you up? You seem a little distressed.


reader Cogniscentum said...

Yes. I means that you can't wrap your mind around the fact that selling out Israel is not going to protect you from these savages.


reader Shannon said...

So you are saying it wouldn't have made any difference whether France had signed or not. Ok, that's your opinion.


reader Cogniscentum said...

Seems to be the terrorists opinion too.


reader Shannon said...

Ah? I thought they were taking revenge against Charlie Hebdo's Mahomet offending caricatures. So you think it is all linked to Israel-Palestine then ?


reader davideisenstadt said...

Your country and people have created this situation...perhaps this is god's retribution on your horrid culture for its excesses during the reign of terror, its capitulation to the nazis, its wholehearted cooperation and slavish devotion to their nazi masters, and the wholesale roundup an murder of little jewish children, something BTW that the nazis never even asked yo guys to do....at least the people of normandy seem to appreciate the freedom bought with the blood of the british, australian, canadian and american soldiers who died for...i dont know, your right to hate the jew and to kow tow to your islamic masters?


reader Shannon said...

Mmmh... knitting by be too dangerous for you after all ;)


reader Swine flu said...

Huh? I thought ancient Rome ceased to exist a couple of centuries before the birth of Islam.


reader MikeNov said...

>the National Front were not invited to take part in Sunday’s rally for “national unity” in Paris.

Still thinking the French will fight back? The National Front deemed beneath them, but they are now going to be the party that dominates.


reader MikeNov said...

Are you suggesting Israel is behind these attacks?


reader MikeNov said...

No, you are the one who is saying that.


reader MikeNov said...

I knew you were joking, but didn't realize that they actually made such a cartoon. Hilarious.


reader davideisenstadt said...

Devalue himself characterized the french resistance as a "myth" and felt that this was the only thing that kept the french from being at the losers' table in the post war europe.
After being freed form nazi occupation, the french rearded the world by pursuing their own idiotic foreign policy, to the detriment of the free world, and now the french themselves.
As jerimiah wright would say "the chickens have come home to roost"


reader Swine flu said...

"So why do these terrorists attack France?"


Because they live there.


reader davideisenstadt said...

no she is saying something along the lines of "why would you do this to us...we are your friends..."


reader John Archer said...

Do you want it in Braille too? :)


reader Shannon said...

No... you ?